+- Corvetteforum Deutschland (https://www.corvetteforum.de)
+-- Forum: Technikforen (https://www.corvetteforum.de/forumdisplay.php?fid=1)
+--- Forum: C 3 Technikforum (https://www.corvetteforum.de/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Thema: Flat Tappet Oils. (/showthread.php?tid=57995)
Seiten:
1
2
- derCowboy - 08.09.2011
Die Flasche in deiner Hand ist für die Lager. Ich habe keine Ahnung ist, ob es das selbe ist wie das meist rote für die Nockenwelle aber ich verwende das eine für das eine und das andere für das andere. Und ich habs im Fläschchen, aber meist sind bei den Nockenwellen Tütchen dabei
- Ravoll - 08.09.2011
bin nicht auf der suche nach Assembly lube,sowas habe ich reichlich.Bin auf der suche nach'ne motoröl mit "high-zinc, high-phosphorus " formeln,oder einen additive was'ne standard öl auf vergleichbares bringt.Hab'ne thread beim corvette.com forum gefunden.Gibts eigentlich einen davon was ich in DE gesehen habe,und zwar Castrol Syntec 20W-50.
(The sections below in order are:
List of oils that claim > 1,000 PPM ZDDP in alphabetical order
List of break-in oil and break-in additives
Technical background, references and resources
Oil List
AMSOIL Synthetic Premium Protection Available via Forum Vendor C66 Racing LLC; PM 'Subdriver' for more information
Grades: 10W40 (AMO), 20W50 (ARO), 5W20 (HDD), 20W-50 (TRO)
Claim: "It is ideal for high-mileage vehicles, vehicles with flat-tappet cams and high-stress vehicles subject to hot temperatures, heavy hauling, trailer pulling or off-road use."
Verification: ~1265 PPM: https://www.amsoil.com/dealer/techse...t%20Tappet.pdf
AMSOIL Z-ROD Synthetic Available via Forum Vendor C66 Racing LLC; PM 'Subdriver' for more information
Grades: 10W30, 20W50
Claim: "AMSOIL Z-ROD Synthetic Motor Oil is formulated with high levels of ZDDP to protect flat-tappet cams, lifters, rockers and other areas susceptible to wear. Its high-zinc, high-phosphorus formulation provides the extra wear protection these critical splash-lubricated components require."
Verification: None; "meets API SL (1,000 ppm ZDDP) and earlier (> 1,000 ppm ZDDP) specifications"
Brad Penn
Grades: 0W-30, 10W-30, 10W-40 , 15W-40, 20W-50
Claim: In addition to our unique base oil cut, increased concentration of “zinc” (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate a.k.a. ZDDP) provides outstanding anti-wear/anti-scuffing protection for engines employing either ‘flat tappet’ or roller cams. BRAD PENN® Penn Grade 1® High Performance Oils have been evaluated by a number of premiere camshaft manufacturers with tremendous success. Many are now recommending our Penn Grade 1® High Performance Oils to provide outstanding protection for their ‘flat tappet’ or roller cams.
Verification: https://www.penngrade1.com/Zinc.aspx
Castrol Syntec 20W-50
Grades: 20W50
Claim: "Engineered to increase wear protection for classic cars with flat tappet camshafts"
Verification: Email from Castrol 12/9/09: Current Syntec 20W-50 (for classic cars) is actually a modern premium quality API SM product that has been Zinc boosted to Zinc levels that are reminiscent of levels from historic API categories such as SG when flat tappet cams with high spring loads were common in the fleet. For reference, note that the API SM category has the most rigorous passenger car engine oil (PCO) test performance requirements in the history of the API PCO categories. The level of Zinc in the new Syntec 20W-50 is a minimum of 1200 ppm, which will provide excellent anti-wear protection for the cam and lifters in a flat-tappet cam engine.
Collector's Choice Motor Oil
Grades: 20W50
Claim: Read verification sheet below
Verification: 2000 PPM claimed: https://www.mossmotors.com/graphics/p...0-815_INST.pdf
CompCams Muscle Car & Street Rod Oil
Grades: 10W30, 15W50
Claim: optimum amounts of ZDDP (Zinc and Phosphorous) provide unmatched anti-wear properties. available in both 10W30 and 15W50 formulas and is perfect for late model or classic engines with flat tappet valve trains.
Verification: NONE CompCams Tech Line refused to provide any details on ZDDP levels and the MSDS provides no details. The tech would go so far as to say it has "more than" 1,400 PPM ZDDP.
Joe Gibbs Hot Rod Oil
Grades: 10W30, 15W50 in both conventional and synthetic.
Claim: Higher levels of Zinc (ZDP) than regular passenger car oils. Delivers proper anti-wear protection for older style push-rod and flat-tappet engines.
Verification: 1270 PPM ZDDP https://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/Datasheets/HR
%2010W-30%20Product%20Data%20Sheet%2010-22-07.doc
Mobile 1 15W-50
Grades: 15W50
Claim: "Mobil 1 15W-50 is also recommended for older valve train designs that may benefit from a higher level of anti-wear normally not required for newer generation vehicles."
Verification: https://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...duct_guide.pdf
It still remains unclear to me how Mobile 1 can claim API SM/SN compliance when the oil is exempt by grade and far exceeds the maximum ppm ZDDP allowed
Red Line Synthetic Motor Oil
I made the decision to remove Red Line oils from the list as they make no claims regarding flat-tappet cam support on their website and I'm awaiting confirmation from them via email regarding their ZDDP levels.
Royal Purple RP
Grades: 10W40, 15W40, 20W50
Claim: "For stock or mildly modified flat tappet valve trains (<.525” lift), we recommend our SAE 10W40, 15W40 or 20W50 engine oils."
Verification: NONE
Royal Purple HPS High Performance Street Motor Oil
Grades: 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, 10W-40 and 20W-50.
Claim: It is fortified with a high level of zinc/phosphorus anti-wear additive... Protects valve trains using roller or flat tappet lifters requiring added protection due to high lift/ high ramp rate camshafts
Verification: NONE
Royal Purple XPR
Grades:0W10, 5W20, 5W30, 10W40, 20W50
Claim: "In applications with flat tappet valve trains using high-lift cams and/or high RPM applications, we strongly recommend upgrading to our XPR line of engine oils as these have an even greater concentration of ZDDP providing excellent protection with the higher spring pressures."
Verification:NONE
Valvoline VR1
Grades: 20W50, 10W30
Claim: "High zinc/phosphorus provides extreme wear protection, including flat tappet applications."
Verification: 1300 - 1400 PPM ZDDP https://www.valvoline.com/pdf/VR-
1_Racing_Motor_Oil.pdf NOTE that there are some concerns with VR1 due to inconsistent test results.
Valvoline Specialty Racing Oil ("Not Street Legal")
Grades: 20W50
Claim: "High zinc/phosphorus provides extreme wear protection, including flat tappet applications."
Verification: 1300 - 1400 PPM ZDDP
https://www.valvoline.com/pdf/Specialty_Synthetic_Racing_Oils.pdf
Valvoline Roush Full Synthetic
Grades: 5W30, 5W50, 10W30, 10W40
Claim: "Provide longer lasting zinc/phosphorus anti-wear."
Verification: NONE
Valvoline Racing Synthetic
Grades: 20W50, 10W30
Claim: "High zinc/phosphorus for extreme anti-wear, including flat tappets."
Verification: NONE
Engine Break-In Oils/Additives
Brad Penn Break-in Oil
"The Brad Penn Penn Grade 1 Break-In oil is designed specifically with a lower level of ZDDP and other select additive components as a Break-In oil. Since break in is a wearing process high levels of an anti-wear additive may be counterproductive. The type of ZDDP used in this oil is also more suitable for break in applications." Taken from the Brad Penn website; the concept of less ZDDP for initial break-in is counter to offerings by other vendors and cam vendor guidance. Evaluate for yourself.
CompCams Break-in Oil
Joe Gibbs Break-in Oil
Royal Purple Break-In Oil
GM Engine Oil Suppliment (EOS)
Background
ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl-Dithio-Phosphate, "zinc" or "zink") is an anti-wear oil additive that contains roughly equal amounts of zinc (Zn) and phosphorus (P) and is particuarly critical for correct lubrication of flat-tappet camshafts. The amount of ZDDP has decreased over time with the broad adoption of roller-tappet cams and the negative impact ZDDP has on catalytic converters.
Standards for engine oil are set by the American Petroleum Institute (API) and the International Lubricants Standards Approval Committee (ILSAC). Prior to 1988 API SF specified a minimum of 1500 PPM P. In 1993 API SG reduced reduced the minimum to 1200 PPM, and it was reduced again to 1000 PPM with the SL specification. A broad wave of flat-tappet camshaft failures started in 2004 following introduction of API SM and ILSAC GF-4 oil specifications which set a maximum of 800 PPM and a minimum of 600 PPM P for grades SAE 0W-20, SAE 5W-20, SAE 0W-30, SAE 5W-30 and SAE 10W-30. Initially blamed on poor cam quality control, it was quickly determined that it was in fact the reduction of ZDDP combined with more agressive cam profiles and associated higher spring loads that were the root cause. Testing that showed the new oils would still have acceptable ZDDP for flat-tappet cams was done with very mild cam profiles and very low spring pressures - not what is found in a performance engine. Note that as an additive, ZDDP loses potency over time, losing approximately 1/2 of it's effectivness at approximately 6,000 miles. The latest API SN and ILSAC GF-5 specifications do not change the maximum/minimum ppm ZDDP.
API/ILSAC Oil Specifications
From these events, specifications and timeline I propose that:
Flat-tappet cam failures started with the reduction of ZDDP < 1000 PPM.
Based on this, 1000 PPM ZDDP is the minimum required level.
Levels of 1200-1400 ppm ZDDP may be required for more extreme cams. What level defines too much ZDDP is unclear, but for street use more than around 1400 PPM is likely not appropriate.
Oil change intervals should be no more than 3,000 miles with dino oil, 6,000 with synthetic.
Any oil marked API SM/SN, ILSAC GF-4/5 or ILSAC CJ-5 in grades SAE 0W-20, SAE 5W-20, SAE 0W-30, SAE 5W-30 and SAE 10W-30 cannot have sufficient ZDDP.
The oils listed above claim to contain >= 1000 PPM ZDDP and/or claim to be specifically formulated for flat-tappet cams. Note that the list is specific for product and grades - often a different product or grade by the same manufacturer won't have the same level of ZDDP. Where there is verification, it's linked. I am not making recommendations and I have no axe to grind - if there need to be changes, post the information for review.
Specifically not included in the list are:
Racing oils that are only available in single-weight. Additionally, generally racing oils aren't a good selection for the street, as they're not designed for extended change intervals.
"ZDDP" additives (other than those specifically for engine break-in) as these are not recommended by any oil manufacturer.
Oils not readily retail-available.
Diesel oil. The International Lubricants Standards Approval Committee (ILSAC) CJ-4 (diesel) specification states a maximum of 1200 ppm phosphorus, and oil analysis typically shows significantly less. Also, the additive package is significantly different than gasoline oils. Please see the note at the top of this sticky and do a search - you'll find no end of threads discussing this; evaluate for yourself.
Note regarding switching from mineral to synthetic
There's a lot of feedback that making this switch causes engines to develop leaks. This can be the case, but it's important to understand why. Synthetic oil is more solvent than mineral oil, meaning that it can clean and remove deposits left by mineral oils - and expose worn or damaged oil seals. If your engine currently uses more than about 1 quart every 1,000 miles or is already "leaky", you may experience leaks (or worse leaks) by switching. Note that this solvency is a good thing; this is exactly what keeps an engine far cleaner when running synthetic.
Thanks to all the folks that posted oil information across the Forum and on this thread!
Oil Analysis Companies
Blackstone Labs
Oil Analysis Labs, Inc.
Note that it is CRITICAL that the oil be well-agitated before pouring a sample! Also note that the accuracty of "Virgin Oil Analysis" has been called into question based on a number of inconsistent results.See this link and associated links to evaluate for yourself. Brad Penn also notes disparity in these results.
Other References
Bob Is The Oil Guy forums - discussion of oil and test results)
- camarotom - 08.09.2011
Zink Zusatz gibts von Lucas Oils hier in Deutschland.
Das verwende ich bei Flat-Tappet zusammen mit ganz normalem mineralischen 15W40 für die Einlaufphase.
https://www.lucasoil.de/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=145
Ich dachte es geht um die Paste.
@derCowboy
Das von Clevite ist rot und das von Federal Mogul ist grün. Inhaltlich gibt es da soweit ich weiss keinen Unterschied. Was für Lager gut ist passt auch für die Lifter, die Nockenwelle und alle anderen beweglichen Teile.
Bislang hatte ich weder mit dem einen noch mit dem anderen Probleme.
- Ravoll - 08.09.2011
Zitat:Original von camarotom
Zink Zusatz gibts von Lucas Oils hier in Deutschland.
Das verwende ich bei Flat-Tappet zusammen mit ganz normalem mineralischen 15W40 für die Einlaufphase.
https://www.lucasoil.de/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=145
Ich dachte es geht um die Paste.
@derCowboy
Das von Clevite ist rot und das von Federal Mogul ist grün. Inhaltlich gibt es da soweit ich weiss keinen Unterschied. Was für Lager gut ist passt auch für die Lifter, die Nockenwelle und alle anderen beweglichen Teile.
Bislang hatte ich weder mit dem einen noch mit dem anderen Probleme.
Bingo!!!!!
- corvettechris - 09.09.2011
Gibt auch ein Einfahröl für die ersten km.
Hatte eins in meinem frisch revidierten 327er.
Soll (angeblich) gegen Verglasung vorbeugen.
Glaub, ich hab noch einen 5l Kanister im Keller.
- perlen - 30.12.2014
Hallo,
da ich ja immer auf der Suche nach Alternativen bin habe ich mal bei dem Hersteller des
PENNASOL SUPER DYNAMIC SAE 20W-50 nachgefragt, wegen dem Zinkdithiophosphat Anteil,
unser Produkt-Management hat uns folgende Werte i.B.a. Zinkdithiophosphat gegeben:
MULTIGRADE SUPER HD 20W-50 4.000 – 8.000 mg/kg
SUPER DYNAMIC 20W-50 5.350 – 10.700 mg/kg
das wäre doch mehr als bei einigen Markenölen.
Grüße
Udo